** 3 objectives **

susie · Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: ** 3 objectives **

As the web site is continued to growth, I'd like to propose the three objectives :

1. PREVENTING all the stocks currently under Chapter 11 from cancellation
2. MAKE CHANGE to the bankruptcy code to permanently stop the stealing.
3. INVALIDATE all previous stock cancellations to recoup all the lost of the victims of this kind.

As with KMART, UNITED AIR LINE, etc ... managements ripped off all their shares and issued new one, and get millions of free shares. We need to form a single group to fight once and for all. As I look into UAL case, I see many violations of law and the bad process of doing so, I believe that this violation was happened in other cases too. I don't think it is too difficult to achieve the above three objectives. It will take some works, but it is achievable.

*** Bankruptcy code is a big guy's robbery law -- Only big guys can use this law to steal money from share holders ***

Let us continue to inform share holders, calling them to join, on message board of ALL the companies that their previous stocks were cancelled. Thousands of share holders lost billions dollars into the hand of Managements and others ... they need to know there is a web site fighting this cause. They all have the chance to take back all their investments by joining this web site.

Susie

hayesdanaman · Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:13 pm Post subject:

I Agree 100%

Violated · Member Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 4

I don't understand how it can be legal to just rip up our stock and then sell new ones!! To me it makes about as much sense as if a tow truck were to back up to your driveway and pick up your Ford, Chevy, Chrysler etc. and explaining that the company is out of money and that they need to sell your car again and that your title is no longer valid, but you would be certainly welcome to purchase the car again at a higher price. Sad

octopi · Member Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 7 Location: NC

There is a pecking order on who gets paid from the company.
1 Wages
2 Taxes
3 Secured Creditors
4 Unsecured Creditors
5 Common shaeholders
So in essence every one else gets paid first and if not then the stock would become worthless.

susie · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject:

Distribution is different from Ownership.
One of the value of the stock is "business under operation"
Investors still buy stock even with negative asset.
Cancell their ownership and issue new one is simply "Robbing"
Ownership is no longer existed if "business is closed"

Interpreting "Distribution" as "Ownership" is badly flaw.

Sal · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject:

The bankruptcy laws may need some adjustment but there will always be loopholes.

The underlying problem is lack of accountability of the people that control the company.

Currently we have about 200 members on this message board. Lets say that we were owners of a small corporation, we all had equal amounts of shares, we all worked at the company and some of us were officer and directors.

One day something bad and unforeseen happens and we decide that the only way to save the company is to reorganize under chapter 11.

After filing, we work up a plan to emerge from BK. I do not believe that it would be required to cancel the shares and if we had to, we could reissue new shares to the original owners. I am not aware of any law that states the owner can no longer own the company after emerging form BK.

Now, lets take the same company with 200 stockholders and same scenario. But this time, a few people control the company and they are bad people that do not care about the other owners. All they want to do is line their own pockets.

They hire so-called restructuring experts give themselves bonuses, waste as much money as they can, and they then present their case that the shares must be canceled.

The owners do nothing. Therefore, they lose ownership in the company and the people that took control issue new stocks to themselves.

Bankruptcy is a legal proceeding. Whenever there is a legal proceeding, it is up to the people that have an interest in the proceeding to protect their interest or they lose their rights.

Now, I am not aware of the owners of Dana Corp doing anything to protect their interest and their rights. Wink

susie · Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject:

I totally agree with you on your article.
In the case of United Air Line, they did the following :
1. Blocked up the voice of Common Share Holders:
- No representation was allowed. NO objection could be raised and heard.
2. Interpretation of "Distribution" as "Ownership"
- So they could interprete "NO distribution" as "Ownership canceled"
The result was that they canceled the existing stock, issued new one, awarded themself millions new shares.
3. The judge rushed in to approve the exit-plan in 3 days, without regard to the priciple of "democracy", "property right" and "freedom of speech".
- How could the judge made a decision when the victims or defendants in court ware not allowed to speak up. Is it the way this judge did in other cases too? He has stayed as the judge too long that he probably think he is the LAW himself (?) OR he is awarded in some form (?) that made him rush in to approve the exit-plan that clearly violated " democracy" priciple, "property right", the right of victims", etc...

As when we begin to follow through with the 3 objectives, we will discuss the process to carry them out. It is possible that we ask the current LAW firm (represent Dana Stock Shareholders) to take on too. This is billions of dollars case.

JerryJ · Member Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Michigan

The way that I understand the process is that a company can request that the courts "cancel" their stocks. They prove (sic) on paper that the company would be forced to file chapter 7 if they are not allowed to cancel the existing stock so that they can sell new stock to raise capital. I think they usually do the following

1. they sell new stock to raise operating capital.
2. Instead of cash, they offer the new stocks to creditors.
3. They give the board shares of the new stock as "incentive" to continue employment.

Thus the stockholders are screwed!

Oh, and then they change the name of the company to make it all "legal". (Just like K-Mart became K-Mart Holdings.) So, Dana, as we know it, would no longer exist. They would have a new name and new stockholders.

I believe that the abuse of chapter 11 by large corporations is becoming a serious national economic problem. I think that the laws regarding chapter 11 must and will be changed. But I also think it will be too late for Dana stockholders unless we are able to take action now. We need a class action lawsuit.

rivervalley · Member Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 32

I agree with your request for a class action law suit in order to prevent shareholders from being ignored in this chapter 11. But is there an law firm interested in taking on a class action law suit.

I don't see Dana making any effort to convince shareholders that they will retain some equity when Dana comes out of Chapter 11 and that concerns me since in a previous case in which I was a shareholder and which went into chapter 11, the company early on advised the shareholders that they would receive some of the new shares.

Dana has a vacant shareholder web page and has been marked as "under construction" That does not strike me as something you would do unless you did not care about worrying the shaerholders that they were being ignored by the company. http://www.dana.com/underconstruction/

So if someone knows the law firm who is represening the sharholders then please post the information.

Sal · Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject:

You will not find a lawyer because the Court would dismiss any lawsuit against the company immediately and the lawyers know that.

The Court appoints a trustee for the stockholders if the court can be convinced that there will be value leftover or for other reasons that the court sees fit.

There is some effort to get that underway.

susie · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject:

If the court appoints a trustee, it is good enough. We can work out through this process to achieve these 3 objectives.

The company is not only about the name, it is about asset, employee, management, existing cash, equipment, manufacturing, etc... UNDER the name. If all other is the same, except the name change, then it is another manipulation with intention to steal. When they sell new issued shares, the above are things that investors base on to pay for the share, not only the company name.

When investors buy shares, one of the value is because the business of the company is still "under operation". Many companies have negative assets and their stock still have buyers, Investors are willing to wait to ride out the bad time, some time years, until it is closed. Cancelling existing stock will take their ownership - and money - away. Also take away the chance to ride out the bad time.

The only way to cancel the existing stock is "closing the business". The ownership 'property right' must continue to exist as long as "business is still alive", under Chapter 11 or not. It is similar as "the right to live" of a person is no longer existed when he died. Take away the life of a person when he is in hospital - still talk and breath - is simply a murder.

The above point of view is very simple to understand, even high school students know it. How could the JUDGE and MANAGEMENT don't ? Only the motive behind the new share is the answer.

We will do our best. Don't let them get away with millions of stolen properties. I worked for a company in Chapter 11, they use Dilution as the method to solve the issue. Management knew well this method, but for their own benefit, they manipulated to wipe out the existing shares so they gain even bigger. " In the depth of my heart, I knew that these big guys are robbery at gun point - behind the law is the gun "

Current bankruptcy code is a HUGE incentive for management to manipulate to push the company further into Chapter 11 when the opportunity comes.

Susie

Sal · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:48 pm Post subject:

This is something that is simple, everyone can do it and it could have an impact on the Court to grant a shareholders committee.

Send a letter to the Judge and tell the Judge why you think you should have representation.

Currently Appaloosa Investments is working on getting the Court to provide a shareholders committee and the company is paying all of the costs. However, that is just one company.

If the Judge received thousands of letters from real people that are the real owners of Dana asking for representation, It would be difficult for a judge to ignore the request. It certainly would not hurt.

Keep in mind that you are sending a letter to a Judge. It is not proper to offend a Judge.

It is understandable that people are angry, but the anger should be directed to Dana’s Board of Directors, and the executive officers, not the Judge.

Spread the word for everyone to send a letter and spread the word about this website. This website is the only way that the stockholders can communicate and not enough stockholders know about it.

Send regular mail. Do not send emails.

The Honorable Burton R. Lifland
U.S. Bankruptcy Court, Southern District of New York (Manhattan)
One Bowling Green
New York, NY 10004-1408

http://www.nysb.uscourts.gov

susie · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject:

Thank you for your guidance. That was what I intended to ask - how to proceed next ?. Is it the same judge that we can write to for all companies or just for Dana? If it is for all then I will write to this Judge , If it is not, who should I write to ?

3 objectives are what I think we will do once and for all. As long as the #2 is achieved, Dana share holders will be protected from cancellation.

Before I write, I would also like to use this web site to bring up arguments that are meaningful, AND if any one can reason any way that justifies the stock cancellation, PLEASE discuss. If it is justified, I WILL STOP the fighting. If it is not, I will continue until some major obstical arises. I know that many people don't want to fight because it may cost them more to fight than to give up, both time and money. NO individual can fight for this kind of justice and fairness alone. We will go one step at a time.

For myself, there are motives :
(1) Most of all is because I hate deeply when I see big guys use legal manipulation to rob from share holders - many are their life savings- It keeps hurting me at night when I think about it. Let those big guys get away with it will leave a scarce in my heart.
(2) Secondly, the justice and fairness in our system are badly violated - in arguments and in practice -.
(3) and last, recovering for myself and all those who are the victims.
*** If you look at the real time stock chart on the day of cancellation, you will have a real feeling of what is going on ***

If, in our system, "justice and fairness" are not observed and respected, How do we live with each other ? In the next post, I will bring up one more time ALL the arguments, If any one can see a TINY flaw in those arguments, please point it up. We discuss and argue clearly all points before proceeding. We must win ourself first, before we write to the judge.

I have worked for a long time, there are good and bad managements, also there are many good judges and a few not too good judges out there. The check and balance system is needed so that no individual can badly goes out of way.

Susie

Sal · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject:

Judge Lifland presides over the Dana chapter 11 filing and anyone that has Dana stocks should write requesting a shareholders committee. The address is in the previous post.

I think that we can prevent Dana stocks from being canceled and there is some progress in that direction. Letters to Judge Lifland are important so everyone do your part and send letters.

To have a law changed, you need to contact the lawmakers and I do not know who they are that wrote that code. You can start by contacting a US senator or congressional representative in your district.

JerryJ · Member Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Michigan

Hi all,

I plan on writing a letter to the Judge but it would be nice if we could have a template letter? Has anybody written their letter and feel that it could be a good starting point for the rest of us? Or is that a bad idea?

Maybe one letter stating all our "arguments" that could be printed and mailed by any of us?

One thing that Dana did that I find deplorable is that they stated incorrect forecasts of profits. They kept saying that they expected to earn profits this year, then they turn around and say that their reports were inaccurate and that they lost money instead. I was ready to sell at 17.00 a share until I read that they expected to make a profit. I was talking to some friends who also hold Dana stock and we all agreed that since Dana was still making a profit that it would be wise to hold. They tricked us! They lied and because of their incorrect figures we are all left with nothing. This should be one of the items that prove that we have grounds for a ruling for a committee.